Pass Obamacare…or you’ll be living in a van down by the river!!

Patches goes off his meds and channels motivational speaker Matt Foley.

Those folks in New England really know how to pick ’em.

H/T Ed Driscoll

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17 responses to “Pass Obamacare…or you’ll be living in a van down by the river!!

  1. I just hope a lot more people go off their meds and start to stand up for changing the way health care is delivered in this country. The fact is, if we keep going the direction we have been headed the whole system will collapse anyway; it’s a simple matter of numbers and statistics (oh sorry, that sounded much too educated and honest. Damn intelectuals, always trying to make regular folks feel inferior) So yeah, go ahead and
    bury hour head in the sand, pay your insurance premium so your broker can make a fat commision, the company execs can go on their golf junket to Hawaii, the corporation can buy some more downtown real estate – and they will still deny your claim in the end (if at all possible, or at all legal) because they are always going to be looking at the bottom line, not at your health or well-being. That’s not why they are in business.

    Please, separate “Health Care” from “for-profit Multinational Corporations, making boat-loads of money, ie: profit, at the expense of the health of all Americans” – They aren’t the same thing.

    I’m all for making money, lots of it; but I view making huge profits off of peoples misfortune
    and ill health as tantamount to Evil. Unless you somehow make your living, or are the benificary of of that low-life racket, how could you be for it in good conscience? Maybe you somehow benifited from this “Industry” Mark, maybe that is why you are so afraid of changing the status quo…. I guess if that’s the reason, I can see your point…..

    I don’t agree with everything that comes out of Patrick Kennedy; but at least he is passionate about doing something to change the way the “Health Care” industry is run in this country. Or, I guess you can just bury your head in the sand, ignore the facts,numbers and statistics – and continue giving your money to big insurance companies. Maybe they’ll loan some of that money back to us to help us pay for our war in Iraq – like the Chinese. Ha ha ha America, we own you now. How you like pushing button? Do you see yourself pushing button in five year?

    Joe

  2. And another thing: Where are all these people that are so enamored with our present healthcare “system”?

    I have good healthcare, my kids have good healthcare, and all of my employees have good healthcare – and I pay through the nose for it. The only reason I can even come close to paying for our own healthcare is because I have a business that caters to folks with enough money to pay for the (some would say unnecessary) services we provide.

    What about the poor folks that work for a company like Walmart, or for a struggling fast food joint or restaurant, or for a non-union manufacturing job, or for the mentally ill. Should these people just “deal with it” and pipe down?

    That’s not the country I want for my children.

    We are the wealthiest nation on this earth and I think it’s sad we can’t see past the rhetoric and
    propaganda and start to care for our own tax-paying citizens. By not taking care of the health of ALL Americans we are in a rece to the bottom in the global scheme.

    Oops, I mentioned Global – I forgot, we Americans are supposed to be more isolationist, like Charles Lindbergh. He had some good points there; other than supporting the Nazis and all….

    Or, you can make fun of people for being passionate about a cause. Whatever works for you.

    Joe

  3. Teresa in Fort Worth, TX

    “…start to care for our own tax-paying citizens…”

    Joe, the problem is that we will be paying for our NON-tax-paying citizens, as well as ourselves and our families. Almost 50% of people today don’t pay anything in taxes. That means that the burden is going to fall on those of us who already pay taxes.

    Our family’s tax rate is currently 39%, plus 6.5% for Social Security and Medicare taxes. How much more are we going to be expected to shell out for the families who are willing to pay over $100 a month for cell phone service, $100 for cable TV, and however much they are willing to pay for cigarettes, nails, hairdos, and junk food? It seems to me that those same families can forego those luxuries and pay for a decent insurance policy….

  4. Teresa in Fort Worth, TX

    Oh, and incidentally, those same families who will be getting “free” healthcare (for them, not me) are also allowed to send their kids to college for virtually nothing, while we are expected to pay full price for our kids. Funny thing is, we are already setting aside 10% of our pre-tax income for retirement so that we will not be dependent on our government in our old age. When you’re doing that along with paying exorbitant tax bills, it’s kind of hard to save for kids’ college.

  5. You seem to be a master in the art of the straw man arguement Joe. Whether it is your fabricated out of thin air statement regarding my support of Rush Limbaugh, accusations of me being bitter and angry person motivated by a powerless youth (?), or assuming that because I oppose the healthcare bill now squirming it’s way through congress I am against any and all healthcare reform. You are very good at setting them up and then beating them thoroughly with your “smart” stick.

    You’ll get better results with me if you leave the vitriol and “I am smart, you are stupid” type of statements at the door. It’s not that I am anti-intellectual Joe, I just prefer the thinking of men like Thomas Sowell or Milton Freidman who seek solutions to social ills that will work in the real world rather than the fantasy world of the collectivists.

  6. Teresa,

    In my opinion, the whole Non-tax-paying citizens sucking the rest of the nation dry is a super non-starter.

    I know it seems unfair to be paying more in taxes (as a percentage of your income) than the guy next to you pays; but, if you agree that taxes do in fact need to be paid – in some form – for basic services like the federal courts, paying your elected officials (a reasonable salary) legitimate national defense, the FDA, USDA, NTSB, non-toll highways, etc, etc…. (I’m not talaking state taxes, just federal taxes) then, you look out there and see that a large percentage of the US population is already living well below the poverty level – ie: not being able the feed and house themselves properly – and I fully agree with you about the cell phones, cable TV, hair weaves, hooker nails, 22″ wheels for their cars, etc, etc, (except, that our economy is COMPLETELY dependent on consumer spending) – then you have to say “where the heck are we going to get the money we need to run these basic services?; do we tax the people that can’t afford to pay attention as it is, or do we forgive them paying just the federal income tax; but still get all the rest of the local taxes from them – sales tax, excise tax, property taxes, vehicle taxes, etc.

    So It’s not so much that you as a hard working educated person pay a higher share of taxes, as the people that would suffer the most by paying the same percentage as you, are given a hall pass – in order to help them supposedly pull themselves out of their current economic situation. I guess that is, unless you really do want the poor to get poorer. And then you’re in the situation where you have no one to buy that expensive American made car, or that American made pair of shoes, or that American made tool, etc. etc. – then suddenly nothing is made in America any more, and you become a nation of layabouts and unemployed people (just make a trip on up to Detroit if you don’t believe me) If it’s made in Korea, or China – with political prisoners ie: unpaid labor, or in Bangladesh, it’s going to cost a lot less and the poor folks are going to buy it right up, because they can’t afford the American made version. It’s a vicious cycle that we have been in for at least the last 30 years. You tell me what the solution is; Eat the rich? Kill the poor? Buy only American? – Right on, no more Walmart!

    Here’s a good short paper written by Margaret Legum that is easy reading (at least easier than most) on alternative forms of taxation. Find me even the most “conservative” person that will disagree with most of what she says. Maybe some day…..

    http://www.sane.org.za/pubs/alternative.html

    However, in modern-day America, to deny a needy person, or child, basic health care is something that we as a society are not prepared, or should I say not willing to do. The poor people that can’t (or refuse to) purchase private health insurance are still getting good health care; they just go to the emergency room – and then you and I pick up the tab for it through higher local taxes or higher premiums on our own health insurance. Do you have the stomach to let a child die on the sidewalk because her parents didn’t buy private health insurance? Would you let the parent die because the they were too poor, or too shortsighted, to buy private health insurance? I don’t think I would…..

    And as for the education aspect: What bothers me much more than a person from a poor background getting good grades, getting accepted to a major university, then having me as as Joe taxpayer pay for his or her complete education, is a kid from a wealthy family, who gets poor grades, gets into a major university solely because his or her parents can afford the tuition, gets bad grades throughout school, then graduates – only to serve a marginal benefit to society once they get out. (ie; our good friend George Bush) Maybe that’s what’s wrong with America?

    You can make a pretty strong argument for that using the GI bill after ww2 as an example: Millions of returning GI’s were the first in their families to attend college – not because their parents could afford it, but because the opportunity was there – and that was without a doubt the most productive period this country has ever seen. I believe I even read that this Westsound fellah’s own father was a benefactor of the GI Bill….. maybe that’s how he got enough of an education to be able to write a complete and coherent sentence…… Maybe, if he was of a different color, a different economic background, and he grew up in a different neighborhood, he would right now be hanging out on the street corner wondering what the hell to do next; instead of having the time to write a blog about how hard it is being a white male in America…… Just a thought.

    Take care,

    Joe

  7. Westsound,

    I wasn’t implying your support for Rush Limbaugh, I merely stated that I thought he was a complete Idiot (and I still challenge you to refute that) – and, that your mean-spirited name calling and making fun of someone’s physical appearance, like you have done with Nancy Pelosi and Rosie O’donnell, (even though I have to agree with you there – yuck) merely because they disagree with your political or economic viewpoints, is far from adult, or constructive. It just makes people think you’re a name calling bully.

    Other than that part, I really like reading your viewpoint; even if I do disagree with most of it……

    And OK; you’re smart and I’m stupid – now prove it – with real facts – not name calling and making fun of people. It’s beneath you.

    collectivists-ly yours,

    Joe

  8. I think it is a bit telling Joe in who you percieve the bully to be in this situation. Me and my little blog thingy with a scant 300 or so daily readers, or the Speaker of the US House of Representatives attempting to shove a bill down the throats of a balking public by any means necessary, constitutional or not.

    If I seem a bit harsh in comparing Nancy Pelosi’s looks to a clapped out real estate maven with an alcoholic plastic surgeon or Rosie O’Donnell to a…well…we all know what she looks like, it is all in good fun and in the spirit of a long tradition of political satire. That said, the postmodern left has a nasty habit of accusing those they disagree with on issues as racists, or homophobes, or merely stupid, rather than engaging them in intellectually honest debate. This kind of argument by accusation can be seen on the Right as well in the charge of being Un-American to those they disagree with. Respond to such a charge with “I am not a racist” or “I am so American” and the recipient of such a charge is already behind the eight ball and on the defensive from the get go. It’s often more effective I find to stay on the offensive and respond with ridicule to the person making the libelous charge. Respond with well reasoned arguments like the comments above I will respond in kind.

    Looking forward to your future comments Joe.

    Oh, thanks for letting me be the smart one today!

  9. Teresa in Fort Worth, TX

    Joe,
    I don’t have a problem paying taxes for some necessities. However, for almost 50% of the population to be paying NO taxes, and then expecting the rest of the population to pay exorbitant amounts is ridiculous in my mind. Why someone making as little as $10,000 can’t pay something like 1% of their income ($100) is beyond me.

    As you said, people without insurance are able to get service at their local non-profit hospital. While that is a less than ideal situation, national health care will end up with ALL of us being served at local non-profit hospitals which are staffed with the worst of the worst when it comes to medical personnel. If you don’t believe me, then look at places like Russia, China, North Korea. I’m not pretending that I have the answers, but I believe that the free market, with all of its flaws, is still better than a single-payer system with no competition.

    As to the tax issue, the best thing that I saw to explain why high taxes on people are a bad thing, imagine that someone makes $100,000, and is taxed at 15% (%15,000). Increase that tax rate by 1% ($16,000), and the government gets $1000 extra dollars to “spread around” as it sees fit.

    Decrease that tax rate by 1% (14,000), and the WORKER has an extra $1000 to spend as they see fit. Every time that they purchase a good or a service, they are contributing to a business, which will in turn be able to pay part of an employee’s salary (who, in turn, will also pay taxes), purchase goods to resell (which will benefit even more people in the same way – thus more taxes), pay their utilities (again, more employees, more taxes), keep their doors open – thus allowing the building in which they are located to stay open (property and business taxes), etc.

    You can see in this scenario that by LOWERING this person’s taxes by even a small amount has the potential to VASTLY increase the amount of tax that the government would end up collecting. At the same time, since more people can potentially stay employed, the government will not have to provide these people services like unemployment or Medicaid benefits; rather, these folks will be paying INTO those systems.

    However, I think that ALL people should pay taxes, even if it is just 1/4 of 1% – that way, they will understand how upsetting it is when someone in government talks about increasing everyone’s taxes to pay for more programs.

    As for the education angle, I wholeheartedly agree about some of the kids who are getting out of college with awful grades. However, until we hold these institutions accountable for what they are “graduating”, nothing is going to change. For my part, the schools that my kids attend have policies that if students’ grades fall below a certain level, they will be asked to leave until they can bring those grades back up.

    Finally, I realize that you may not like George Bush (I happen to like him very much, but I’m a Republican); however, given how much grief the Democrats gave him about his grades, I notice that Mr. Obama never released his. It seems to me that if his grades were SO MUCH BETTER than Mr. Bush’s were, he would be shouting it from the rooftops. I’m just sayin….

  10. I agree with Teresa. Blacks and Mexicans get all the breaks in this country, while white people in the 37% tax bracket are forced to find a way to survive on loopholes in the tax code, institutional widespread racism, and legacy admission into the best schools and careers. Oh, and I wish you luck in your quest to repeat your bullshit statistic of ‘50% not paying any taxes at all’ enough so that eventually someone will believe it’s remotely true.

    Also, congratulations to WestSound for mastering the art of right-wing internet arguing. Whenever someone makes a point that you can’t argue on its merits, accuse the other person of creating ‘straw men’, act as though you never support the likes of Limbaugh, Beck and Hannity (even though you essentially paraphrase their talking points daily), and then try and justify your pathetic, sexist looks-ism with the grade school level rationalization that ‘The Dems did it first’.

    Here is my favorite bit of garbage, however; “(Nancy Pelosi is) attempting to shove a bill down the throats of a balking public by any means necessary, constitutional or not.” Just because they say this 100 times a day on FoxNews doesn’t make it remotely true. Can I assume that you were leading the protests during the 9 times that Bush used the same procedure to cut taxes for the wealthy? And the ‘balking public’? Turns out they hate the Obamacare bill right up until you tell them what’s in it, and then they love it. The only people that actually understand it AND hate it are insurance conglomerates, those on their payroll, and the semi-retarded sheep who have been convinced to parrot their talking points despite it being against their own best interests.

  11. Teresa in Fort Worth, TX

    boozehound: I would appreciate it if you didn’t put words in my mouth. If you read my words and inferred that about minorities, then that is YOUR mind doing that; not mine. Don’t attribute that kind of racism to someone you don’t know.

    Incidentally, the 50% not paying taxes is from the IRS’ own statistics, as well as several news reports over the past few weeks. If you are interested, please go to their website and have fun – I’ve already done the research, and I’m not willing to go back and find the information for someone who isn’t going to believe me, even if it is on the page in front of them.

    When you go to that website, you will also find that the top 5% of income earners pay the lion’s share of income taxes. But again, I don’t expect you to go and find that out for yourself, because you obviously don’t want to have the facts laid out in black and white to refute the ideas that you hold so dear.

    And before you accuse my family (or those like us) of getting “legacy” admissions to colleges, you might want to look a little bit harder at that statement as well. My kids go to state colleges, where legacy isn’t even considered.

    As for careers, we’re engineers and scientists – there ARE no “legacy” spots; either you do your job well, or you are out on your rear end. We have worked very hard to get where we are; our 2 cars are both 10 years old, we don’t buy designer clothes, we donate generously to our church, and we eat most of our meals at home.

    We also set aside 10% of our income in a 401(k) for our retirement, and we pay for our youngest child to go to a school for children with Down syndrome. We pay for that with funds from a Healthcare Savings Account, which Dear Leader wants to abolish, because it is taken from pre-tax dollars.

    And what most people don’t realize – and what Dick Durbin let slip in a recent speech – is that most people will be paying between 5-15% of their income INTO the healthcare system in lieu of insurance. And that doesn’t count the co-pays that will be expected. And yes, ALL of that is in both of the bills that are currently before Congress – look it up for yourself if you don’t believe me.

  12. Congratulations boozehound! You are the first IP address banned at this site!
    Although my other two lefties who comment here can be snarky at times, they usually have something intellegent to say even if I happen to disagree.

    You on the other hand are simply a nasty piece of shit so bon voyage douchbag.

    You are

  13. Adios Muchachos.

    Even though I can get a bit worked up at times, what I get worked up most about is statements made, without facts to back them up. And mean spirited name calling. I think people that call people names are nothing more than fat-headed, bug-eyed, ugly, fat, buffoons. See, even a die-hard”Liberal” can have a sense of humor…. heh

    Theresa,

    If you think that somehow making people take home $10,000 a year pay at least $100 a year in income taxes is going to teach them some sort valuable civics lesson, you might be in for a slight disappointment…. Most likely they will just have 100 less dollars to pay for clothes, dental care, food, school supplies, heat, electricity, etc, for their kids. But it might make YOU feel better…… You know, poor people and people of color get all the breaks in this country…. (at least according to Boozehound) What a bunch of hooey.

    As far as taxes; We can all find someone who has written a paper that will back up any of our own pre-determened, self interest driven, beliefs – Here’s one that backs up mine :

    http://rricketts.ba.ttu.edu/Tax%20Rates%20and%20Revenues.htm

    But the truth is: how tax rates affect the economy is super complicated and dependant on so many different factors, that either side of the argument can be right or wrong depends on the quarter you look at, at the numbers you choose to include, or how you bend the numbers to suit your own needs. And the huge lag in any one tax code being written and then enacted; in relation to when it actually starts to affect anything. And then like I said, there are so many different random factors that come into play on top of that that, that any numbers or statistics you collect and compile are totally meaningless to confirm your theory of how lower (or higher) tax rates affect the economy as a whole.

    The only true fact is that every dollar spent on services comes from somewhere – either now or later. Trying to make the government more efficient by cutting back on the available funding, is like trying to make your car more fuel efficient my adding less gasoline. It’s just going to run out of gas sooner – and then you’ll have to get it towed in; then spend a lot more $ in the long run.

    Why don’t you get elected to public office? Then, you can be the one who decides what programs to cut and what ones to keep. Everybody wants to cut programs; until it’s a favorite local program that’s on the chopping block – one that would negatively affect their own area or neighborhood. Then all of a sudden, that out-dated and useless Army base becomes absolutely vital to national security…… Or that bridge to nowhere is really important to the fifty prople who live on that Island. Sorry, I couldn’t resist….

    And comparing the health care systems of Europe, Great Britain, Canada (or the rest of the civilized world for that matter) to the ones they have in North Korea, China or Russia is not at all honest, or constructive to the debate. We are a very wealthy nation and we should be able to care for our sick citizens; without handing it over to for-profit corporations – who have no interest in making anyone “healthy” ‘- they just make money, they don’t provide health care.

    And I would love to see Barak Obama’s grades compared side to side with George Bush’s. However, I have a feeling that the “anti-intellectual” branch of the far right would just use that to further their campaign of contempt for educated people in general. – At least that’s the feeling I get from the “uneducated masses” and religious right that seem to have taken over the conservative party in the last twenty-plus years. I have no problem with someone voting for an individual like George Bush or (Sarah Palin) because that person is a proponent of the same kind of social issues you hold, ie: abortion, religion in schools, overseas imperialism (oops, sorry) but to vote for someone like that, and then claim that they are fully qualified to run the free world is, in my opinion, not smart – and dishonest.

    Good luck with your taxes this year Theresa,

    Joe

  14. Tell you what. One last comment so I can defend myself, and then I promise not to pee in your already contaminated by right-wing horseshit pool anymore. Deal?

    We’ll start with the tax thing. The highest number that I could find is that it’s possible, if everyone were to use all deductions they possibly could, that 43% could fall below the minimum amount of income to pay personal, federal income tax. Calling that ‘Nearly 50%’ is disingenuous right off the bat. Now let’s investigate this even further. The federal “personal income tax” reported via Form 1040 is for some offset by various credits, such as the child credit, earned income tax credit etc (None of which would’ve been decreased or eliminated by McCain or a 3rd term of Bush BTW). But those who have their “personal income tax” reduced to zero still pay taxes – such as another “income tax” called the Social Security tax, the Medicare tax, and other taxes such as sales tax, gas tax, car tax, alcohol tax, real estate tax (including the amount their rent pays for the property tax liabilities of landlords), etc. The poor pay a high rate of their income in state and local taxes while the rich pay close to zero percent of their income for sales tax, car tax, property tax etc. It kind of evens out. Taking all taxes together, all fed taxes and all state and local taxes, tax liabilities are actually pretty close to flat as a percentage of income. So this alarmist garbage about “50% pay no taxes at all” is a scam. It ignores payroll taxes, excise taxes, sales taxes. personal property taxes, real estate taxes (passed through by landlords) etc.

    As for the whole race thing, if you can honestly tell me that there’s no racism inherent in the following statement, I think you’re huffing scotch guard…

    “How much more are we going to be expected to shell out for the families who are willing to pay over $100 a month for cell phone service, $100 for cable TV, and however much THEY are willing to pay for cigarettes, nails, hairdos, and junk food?”.

    What seems more likely, that you’re referring to your white neighbors down the street, or THOSE people you see on TV doing up their hair and nails and eating and smoking too much? And that’s even ignoring the rather obvious point that nearly all of those things are taxed at the highest rates allowable.

    I know it’s frustrating when this isn’t an echo chamber of like-minded Jonah Goldberg disciples poorly masking their bleak, ‘get yours before the rapture, screw the brown people’ philosophy in transparent, pretend logic, but I beg you to occasionally try to process political thought with thought and reason instead of pessimism and fear.

    Good night and good luck.

  15. Well…pass me the scotch guard and a paper sack because the only racism apparent here is your assumption that the people described in that paragraph are brown people. It’s quite a stretch to equate the word “they” in the context it was used as somehow racist in intent, even when capitalized.

    Good luck to you boozehound…alcohol dog…whatever.

  16. Teresa in Fort Worth, TX

    Thank you, westsoundmodern.

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